I guess I’m perplexed. Would this cartoon have been the same if Hillary had won? Or a Latino or an Asian? I think the Civil Rights movement brought equality to African Americans. Any number of them could have run as a presidential candidate and won, especially in the past 16 years. I don’t think there’s cause to celebrate just because one has finally made it to the White House though. I see Barack as another candidate who won an election. Color doesn’t matter but we STILL make such a big deal about it. Guess I’m not with the majority though then?
Tiff
I’m right there with ya Mike. We’re not supposed to make a big deal out of the differences between color of skin, but then we’re supposed to turn around and make a big deal out of it. I don’t get it. I know that there are people out there who voted for Obama JUST BECAUSE of the color of his skin, and not because of his knowledge and experience and ability to run this country and I don’t think that’s right. I just hope Obama does a good job, no matter what the color of his skin is!
Tiff, anyone who voted for Obama only because he’s black — and I don’t doubt there are some who did that — is an idiot. Same as people who voted AGAINST him only because he’s black, and you know there were those who did that as well.
Skin color isn’t SUPPOSED to matter anymore, but the fact is, it still DOES. There is plenty of racism still bubbling just below the surface in America, even though we turn our heads away from it, hold our noses, and try to pretend otherwise. And even if we had finally reached a point in our society where skin color truly did not matter, this election would still represent a BIG landmark. Obama is the first non-white president in 220 years of this nation, and that deserves to be recognized. I’d be recognizing the landmark if the new president-elect were a woman or any other race, too, because historical “firsts” interest me and because I think they’re worth observing. I’ll recognize those other firsts when we get to them, too, which I think we will pretty soon now that this one is behind us.
Let me ask you this — and I don’t mean this as an attack, I’m genuinely curious here — would you and Cheno be so irritated about the hoopla if the first black president were a Republican? Or are you just unhappy that your candidate lost and the winning side is feeling pretty good for a change?
chenopup
I think the hoopla is a bit much for any side. We already had this conversation last night, Jas.
There are those who feel this election will bridge racial gaps and that we’re finally in a position as a country that feels more complete. I can appreciate the feelings of those people even though I don’t feel the same way. I’m just ready for whoever is in office to get the job done right.
I liken it to my brother’s recent visit here to Utah to tell my Dad that for the last 20 years, my brother has pretty much blamed all his ills and problems on his upbringing as opposed to just getting over it and moving on. Some can, some can’t. I guess I’m looking at this election the same way. Historic, yes. Are we finally complete as a nation? Nope – we have a LONG way to go.
You and I did have this conversation last night, Cheno. Guess Tiff just stirred it up again using a slightly different stick. 🙂
I can understand you being tired of hype. I don’t happen to feel the same way in this case, but I understand the feeling.
I have to say, though, your comment confuses me. Your remark about your brother sounds like you think race problems in this country are ancient history and we ought to stop talking about them. But then you say we have a long way to go as a country. A long way toward what, exactly, if the problems are over with?
Derek Smith
It doesn’t take an idiot to vote for Obama just because he’s black. I think it’s more common than you suspect. I think there were many who simply wanted to be “a part of history” and voted for the first black president.
The press called Colin Powell’s endorsement of Barack Obama “strange” and “unexpected”. Powell’s and Obama’s views on Iraq, domestic policy and financial matters are not only different, they seem completely at odds. Powell seems to have ditched his political values in favor of race, and he’s no idiot. (Actually, I wish Powell could have been our first black president, but alas…)
The press was downplaying the race issue before the election, but since Obama’s victory, all the headlines have focused on the “First Black President”. That is, after all, the only thing that makes this election “historic”.
…many… simply wanted to be “a part of history” and voted for the first black president.
That’s an angle I hadn’t considered, Derek, and you’re probably correct. I still don’t think that’s the right reason to cast a vote for someone (although I will admit it gave my vote a little extra frisson to know that it was going for the first black presidential candidate), but I retract what I said: it doesn’t necessarily make someone idiotic. (I would still like to think that people were paying some attention to the man’s platform and character, though.)
As for Powell’s endorsement, well… yes, it does look like that was based on race. But you can never be sure. After the way the Bush administration used him to get their war and then hung him out to dry, he might well have felt like just putting the screws to the Republican party. Hard to say.
And I agree that Barack’s race is the reason we’re calling this election “historic.” It’s kind of a given, isn’t it? 🙂
Tiff
Sorry to stir up any emotion between you and Cheno! Didn’t mean to. And to be honest, I don’t call myself Republican, nor do I call myself Democrat. There are issues that I both agree with and disagree with on both sides, so I don’t really feel like I can truly call myself one or the other. I voted for both Democrats and Republicans in this last election, because I voted on the issues, not the party affiliation. I’ve never seen black people any different from white people. I know it was very different in the past. But I’m young and in my lifetime black people have had the same rights that white people do. There are many black people who are very, very successful just like there are many white people who are very, very successful. I just feel like there is a double standard sometimes. For example, if Obama hadn’t won the ticket to the White House, I’m sure we would have heard from some people (probably both black and white) that he didn’t win simply because he’s black and that it’s just America continuing to hold the black people down. If there was a black person and a white person gunning for the same job and they both have equal qualifications, I don’t think the job should go to the black person just because he or she is black. I think it should go to the person that is going to do the best job.
We are taught (at least I was) that we shouldn’t treat a person different just because they look different. But then we’re supposed turn around and recognize someone because they look different? This has been an historic event. I agree. And if anything, I guess it is taking a step toward showing those naysayers out there that America is no longer holding the black person down. Now, let’s get past looking at the color of his skin and start looking at getting the job done.
Tiff, no worries about causing feelings between Cheno and me. He and I have been clashing on politics for nearly 20 years and, most of the time, we manage to do it without breaking any furniture. Most of the time. 🙂
Brian, your entry was thoughtful and well-spoken, as always, and I don’t disagree with any of it — I especially like your line about “evolution, not revolution.” That’s a nice way to articulate the situation.
I guess my issue in this discussion is that the national conversation about Obama being the first black president hasn’t seemed all that excessive to me. Certainly it’s been mentioned in a lot of places, I have mentioned it in what I believe to be a pretty inoffensive way, but I apparently get my news and commentary from different sources than you guys, because I don’t think the subject has been nearly as overdone as you all suggest. Judging from some of your remarks (and I’m counting private messages between myself and others as well as the comments here), one would think it’d been nonstop since Tuesday. Maybe it has been in some circles, but I just haven’t seen it that way. So to me, this complaining about all “the hype” seems unwarranted. Frankly, it has the whiff of sour grapes to me; I can’t help but wonder if some of my conservative friends would be so eager to change the subject if the first black president had been, say, Colin Powell instead of a Democrat.
Look, Brian is correct when he says Obama’s win is just another step along the way of a long journey and that lots of others have taken significant steps before this one. I don’t hear anyone denying that, and I certainly don’t myself. And Tiff, I agree with you that elections or job interviews or success in general should be about an individual’s qualifications, not skin color. I think we’re pretty damn close to meeting that ideal, certainly closer than we were even just handful of years ago. (If you want to talk about qualifications, then I think it’s fair to say that Obama was better qualified than McCain by dint of his more appealing platform and how he handled himself on the campaign trail, but that of course is a matter of my socialist-liberal-pinko-commie opinion).
However, the inescapable fact is that we are looking at a historic first, and they always have enormous novelty and symbolic value. That’s why people get excited about them and talk about them. The symbolism is especially heavy in this case, because black people — unlike women or Asians or Latinos — used to be literal slaves in this country. Yes, I know, ancient history, why are we still talking about it, and why are people using it as an excuse? Because the attitude that enabled slavery has stayed with us, lingering in the bottom of our nation’s psyche like the smell of something rotten that we haven’t quite managed to find and throw out.
Up until 45 years ago, many blacks weren’t even allowed to vote. To bring it a little closer to home, up until 30 years ago, black Mormons weren’t allowed to hold the priesthood. And many of them figured nothing would ever, could ever change. But it has, in less than the span of a single lifetime. The fact that so many people are apparently wondering why this is a big deal is, in fact, why it’s a big deal. Because a lot of relatively youthful people walking around out there still remember when this development would’ve seemed more unlikely than landing a man on the moon. My own mother thought she’d never see a black president; up until Tuesday night, she was convinced that unspoken racism still bubbling away out there in society would prevent an Obama victory, or that, if he won, he’d be gunned down as he delivered his acceptance speech.
There are still racists out there in America, even if we don’t want to admit it anymore, and I’m sure they tried their best to stop him. And I’m incredibly pleased that they failed. A generation ago, they probably would not have. We have evolved, as Brian says in his eloquent blog post.
So why shouldn’t we take some time to digest that fact and maybe even have a little celebration instead of just shrugging and saying, “huh, cool, let’s not talk about this anymore”? God knows we could use a little self-congratulation about something after the last eight years.
All too soon, Obama’s actual job performance will become a bigger issue than this particular footnote in the history books. And this conversation may have already gone on too long. (God knows I certainly have.) But I find the rush to downplay the significance of the moment… curious.
However, the inescapable fact is that we are looking at a historic first, and they always have enormous novelty and symbolic value.
Well, we must be of the same mind here, because we keep agreeing with each other. You’re exactly right – historical firsts are always interesting, even if they aren’t all that important (first man to eat 100 hot dogs in a contest! Woohoo!!!). Obama’s victory is obviously more important than most, but it gets hyped more because of this phenomenon.
As to the “I never thought I’d see a black president” crowd, I can certainly see how that would be the case back in the ’50s and ’60s. But anyone who’s watched politics over the last 10-15 years who still claims to think we’d never see a black president is, in my opinion, denying a lot of reality for dramatic purposes now. Fact is, there are several African Americans who could concievably run for President these days (not saying they’d win, but they’d be serious candidates) – Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Carol Moseley Braun, Harold Ford Jr., others I’m not thinking of right now, etc.
Think of it this way. Anyone out there believe they’ll never see a female President? A Jewish President? A Mormon President?
I also think you and I are in agreement, Brian. What I’ve been reacting to in this thread has been the implication (or blunt statement, in some cases) I’ve been hearing from certain quarters that celebrating the landmark aspect of Obama’s win is somehow wrong or that the enthusiasm of that celebration ought to be restrained. As I’ve said, it comes across to me as sour grapes.
As for the “thought we’d never see” thing, I think it’s probably in part a generational perspective. It seems to me like it’s mostly been older people (like my parents) who were really stunned by this election. Given the events they witnessed in their young adulthood (i.e., the multiple assassinations of the ’60s, the Watts riots and racial unrest in the ’70s), I think that’s pretty understandable. I read an interesting theory somewhere that suggested that those who actually fought for civil rights in the ’60s may have been so conditioned by the battle that they don’t see the victories; in other words, they’re still viewing the world through their old paradigms and don’t realize that times really have changed. The world has moved on without them. And while they may not be in touch with current realities, they’re not willfully denying anything or trying to be dramatic. I certainly don’t think that’s the case with my mom.
Hey, it’s my mom; I’m obligated to cut her some slack… 🙂
I guess I’m perplexed. Would this cartoon have been the same if Hillary had won? Or a Latino or an Asian? I think the Civil Rights movement brought equality to African Americans. Any number of them could have run as a presidential candidate and won, especially in the past 16 years. I don’t think there’s cause to celebrate just because one has finally made it to the White House though. I see Barack as another candidate who won an election. Color doesn’t matter but we STILL make such a big deal about it. Guess I’m not with the majority though then?
I’m right there with ya Mike. We’re not supposed to make a big deal out of the differences between color of skin, but then we’re supposed to turn around and make a big deal out of it. I don’t get it. I know that there are people out there who voted for Obama JUST BECAUSE of the color of his skin, and not because of his knowledge and experience and ability to run this country and I don’t think that’s right. I just hope Obama does a good job, no matter what the color of his skin is!
Tiff, anyone who voted for Obama only because he’s black — and I don’t doubt there are some who did that — is an idiot. Same as people who voted AGAINST him only because he’s black, and you know there were those who did that as well.
Skin color isn’t SUPPOSED to matter anymore, but the fact is, it still DOES. There is plenty of racism still bubbling just below the surface in America, even though we turn our heads away from it, hold our noses, and try to pretend otherwise. And even if we had finally reached a point in our society where skin color truly did not matter, this election would still represent a BIG landmark. Obama is the first non-white president in 220 years of this nation, and that deserves to be recognized. I’d be recognizing the landmark if the new president-elect were a woman or any other race, too, because historical “firsts” interest me and because I think they’re worth observing. I’ll recognize those other firsts when we get to them, too, which I think we will pretty soon now that this one is behind us.
Let me ask you this — and I don’t mean this as an attack, I’m genuinely curious here — would you and Cheno be so irritated about the hoopla if the first black president were a Republican? Or are you just unhappy that your candidate lost and the winning side is feeling pretty good for a change?
I think the hoopla is a bit much for any side. We already had this conversation last night, Jas.
There are those who feel this election will bridge racial gaps and that we’re finally in a position as a country that feels more complete. I can appreciate the feelings of those people even though I don’t feel the same way. I’m just ready for whoever is in office to get the job done right.
I liken it to my brother’s recent visit here to Utah to tell my Dad that for the last 20 years, my brother has pretty much blamed all his ills and problems on his upbringing as opposed to just getting over it and moving on. Some can, some can’t. I guess I’m looking at this election the same way. Historic, yes. Are we finally complete as a nation? Nope – we have a LONG way to go.
You and I did have this conversation last night, Cheno. Guess Tiff just stirred it up again using a slightly different stick. 🙂
I can understand you being tired of hype. I don’t happen to feel the same way in this case, but I understand the feeling.
I have to say, though, your comment confuses me. Your remark about your brother sounds like you think race problems in this country are ancient history and we ought to stop talking about them. But then you say we have a long way to go as a country. A long way toward what, exactly, if the problems are over with?
It doesn’t take an idiot to vote for Obama just because he’s black. I think it’s more common than you suspect. I think there were many who simply wanted to be “a part of history” and voted for the first black president.
The press called Colin Powell’s endorsement of Barack Obama “strange” and “unexpected”. Powell’s and Obama’s views on Iraq, domestic policy and financial matters are not only different, they seem completely at odds. Powell seems to have ditched his political values in favor of race, and he’s no idiot. (Actually, I wish Powell could have been our first black president, but alas…)
The press was downplaying the race issue before the election, but since Obama’s victory, all the headlines have focused on the “First Black President”. That is, after all, the only thing that makes this election “historic”.
…many… simply wanted to be “a part of history” and voted for the first black president.
That’s an angle I hadn’t considered, Derek, and you’re probably correct. I still don’t think that’s the right reason to cast a vote for someone (although I will admit it gave my vote a little extra frisson to know that it was going for the first black presidential candidate), but I retract what I said: it doesn’t necessarily make someone idiotic. (I would still like to think that people were paying some attention to the man’s platform and character, though.)
As for Powell’s endorsement, well… yes, it does look like that was based on race. But you can never be sure. After the way the Bush administration used him to get their war and then hung him out to dry, he might well have felt like just putting the screws to the Republican party. Hard to say.
And I agree that Barack’s race is the reason we’re calling this election “historic.” It’s kind of a given, isn’t it? 🙂
Sorry to stir up any emotion between you and Cheno! Didn’t mean to. And to be honest, I don’t call myself Republican, nor do I call myself Democrat. There are issues that I both agree with and disagree with on both sides, so I don’t really feel like I can truly call myself one or the other. I voted for both Democrats and Republicans in this last election, because I voted on the issues, not the party affiliation. I’ve never seen black people any different from white people. I know it was very different in the past. But I’m young and in my lifetime black people have had the same rights that white people do. There are many black people who are very, very successful just like there are many white people who are very, very successful. I just feel like there is a double standard sometimes. For example, if Obama hadn’t won the ticket to the White House, I’m sure we would have heard from some people (probably both black and white) that he didn’t win simply because he’s black and that it’s just America continuing to hold the black people down. If there was a black person and a white person gunning for the same job and they both have equal qualifications, I don’t think the job should go to the black person just because he or she is black. I think it should go to the person that is going to do the best job.
We are taught (at least I was) that we shouldn’t treat a person different just because they look different. But then we’re supposed turn around and recognize someone because they look different? This has been an historic event. I agree. And if anything, I guess it is taking a step toward showing those naysayers out there that America is no longer holding the black person down. Now, let’s get past looking at the color of his skin and start looking at getting the job done.
My thoughts, inspired by your thoughts…
Thanks.
Well said Brian. Very well said.
Brian, you took the words from my mouth. I wish I could have explained my position as well as you did.
Tiff, no worries about causing feelings between Cheno and me. He and I have been clashing on politics for nearly 20 years and, most of the time, we manage to do it without breaking any furniture. Most of the time. 🙂
Brian, your entry was thoughtful and well-spoken, as always, and I don’t disagree with any of it — I especially like your line about “evolution, not revolution.” That’s a nice way to articulate the situation.
I guess my issue in this discussion is that the national conversation about Obama being the first black president hasn’t seemed all that excessive to me. Certainly it’s been mentioned in a lot of places, I have mentioned it in what I believe to be a pretty inoffensive way, but I apparently get my news and commentary from different sources than you guys, because I don’t think the subject has been nearly as overdone as you all suggest. Judging from some of your remarks (and I’m counting private messages between myself and others as well as the comments here), one would think it’d been nonstop since Tuesday. Maybe it has been in some circles, but I just haven’t seen it that way. So to me, this complaining about all “the hype” seems unwarranted. Frankly, it has the whiff of sour grapes to me; I can’t help but wonder if some of my conservative friends would be so eager to change the subject if the first black president had been, say, Colin Powell instead of a Democrat.
Look, Brian is correct when he says Obama’s win is just another step along the way of a long journey and that lots of others have taken significant steps before this one. I don’t hear anyone denying that, and I certainly don’t myself. And Tiff, I agree with you that elections or job interviews or success in general should be about an individual’s qualifications, not skin color. I think we’re pretty damn close to meeting that ideal, certainly closer than we were even just handful of years ago. (If you want to talk about qualifications, then I think it’s fair to say that Obama was better qualified than McCain by dint of his more appealing platform and how he handled himself on the campaign trail, but that of course is a matter of my socialist-liberal-pinko-commie opinion).
However, the inescapable fact is that we are looking at a historic first, and they always have enormous novelty and symbolic value. That’s why people get excited about them and talk about them. The symbolism is especially heavy in this case, because black people — unlike women or Asians or Latinos — used to be literal slaves in this country. Yes, I know, ancient history, why are we still talking about it, and why are people using it as an excuse? Because the attitude that enabled slavery has stayed with us, lingering in the bottom of our nation’s psyche like the smell of something rotten that we haven’t quite managed to find and throw out.
Up until 45 years ago, many blacks weren’t even allowed to vote. To bring it a little closer to home, up until 30 years ago, black Mormons weren’t allowed to hold the priesthood. And many of them figured nothing would ever, could ever change. But it has, in less than the span of a single lifetime. The fact that so many people are apparently wondering why this is a big deal is, in fact, why it’s a big deal. Because a lot of relatively youthful people walking around out there still remember when this development would’ve seemed more unlikely than landing a man on the moon. My own mother thought she’d never see a black president; up until Tuesday night, she was convinced that unspoken racism still bubbling away out there in society would prevent an Obama victory, or that, if he won, he’d be gunned down as he delivered his acceptance speech.
There are still racists out there in America, even if we don’t want to admit it anymore, and I’m sure they tried their best to stop him. And I’m incredibly pleased that they failed. A generation ago, they probably would not have. We have evolved, as Brian says in his eloquent blog post.
So why shouldn’t we take some time to digest that fact and maybe even have a little celebration instead of just shrugging and saying, “huh, cool, let’s not talk about this anymore”? God knows we could use a little self-congratulation about something after the last eight years.
All too soon, Obama’s actual job performance will become a bigger issue than this particular footnote in the history books. And this conversation may have already gone on too long. (God knows I certainly have.) But I find the rush to downplay the significance of the moment… curious.
Not to belabor the issue, but if you don’t believe me that we’re still struggling with race in America, have a look at this.
Sickening.
However, the inescapable fact is that we are looking at a historic first, and they always have enormous novelty and symbolic value.
Well, we must be of the same mind here, because we keep agreeing with each other. You’re exactly right – historical firsts are always interesting, even if they aren’t all that important (first man to eat 100 hot dogs in a contest! Woohoo!!!). Obama’s victory is obviously more important than most, but it gets hyped more because of this phenomenon.
As to the “I never thought I’d see a black president” crowd, I can certainly see how that would be the case back in the ’50s and ’60s. But anyone who’s watched politics over the last 10-15 years who still claims to think we’d never see a black president is, in my opinion, denying a lot of reality for dramatic purposes now. Fact is, there are several African Americans who could concievably run for President these days (not saying they’d win, but they’d be serious candidates) – Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Carol Moseley Braun, Harold Ford Jr., others I’m not thinking of right now, etc.
Think of it this way. Anyone out there believe they’ll never see a female President? A Jewish President? A Mormon President?
I also think you and I are in agreement, Brian. What I’ve been reacting to in this thread has been the implication (or blunt statement, in some cases) I’ve been hearing from certain quarters that celebrating the landmark aspect of Obama’s win is somehow wrong or that the enthusiasm of that celebration ought to be restrained. As I’ve said, it comes across to me as sour grapes.
As for the “thought we’d never see” thing, I think it’s probably in part a generational perspective. It seems to me like it’s mostly been older people (like my parents) who were really stunned by this election. Given the events they witnessed in their young adulthood (i.e., the multiple assassinations of the ’60s, the Watts riots and racial unrest in the ’70s), I think that’s pretty understandable. I read an interesting theory somewhere that suggested that those who actually fought for civil rights in the ’60s may have been so conditioned by the battle that they don’t see the victories; in other words, they’re still viewing the world through their old paradigms and don’t realize that times really have changed. The world has moved on without them. And while they may not be in touch with current realities, they’re not willfully denying anything or trying to be dramatic. I certainly don’t think that’s the case with my mom.
Hey, it’s my mom; I’m obligated to cut her some slack… 🙂